tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post7844302847338592399..comments2023-10-25T06:08:57.382-07:00Comments on Perspectives in (human) ecology: Week 10: Complex human ecological systems & their dynamicsHuman macroecology adminhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13967591733070493102noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-15211230049620747652007-10-24T23:44:00.000-07:002007-10-24T23:44:00.000-07:00The thing I got from Lansing and Kremer is that co...The thing I got from Lansing and Kremer is that communication is the adaptation that allowed for humans to create a consistent cycle of optimum rice output. I think that their discussion about blind evolution vs. conscious evolution that humans can direct is a all a bunch of hooey. They seem to isolate human activity from the environment as if humans are in total control of the outcomes their implemented ideas may result in. Not just that, humans copy nature. By just understanding how to be consistent with a natural process, such increasing pH of soil, does it make them conscious of their evolution if they are unaware of how little modifications can affect their neighbors optimal output? This is little more than a case of good communication and/or a good community structure that allows individuals to share information about successful irrigation tips.Myra Villaloboshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12080437276571428355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-20734634058290386202007-10-24T21:32:00.000-07:002007-10-24T21:32:00.000-07:00Natural selection, though free of intentionality, ...Natural selection, though free of intentionality, is not so "blind" as Lansing and Kremer seem to assume. The natural world is a self-organizing system. Natural selection doesn't have to "try everything" at random; it is subject to the results of past changes (e.g. developmental constraints). Still, I concede the greater point--artificial selection by human agency can drive uni-directional change more efficiently than can natural selection. The authors' talk of "average fitness" sounds like group selectionism...What would keep some individuals from cheating the system to obtain extra benefit for themselves? Honest signaling through religious rituals?Aaron McCartyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02124823645038472935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-50893735094848930692007-10-24T21:19:00.000-07:002007-10-24T21:19:00.000-07:00We've seen several examples of modeling of complex...We've seen several examples of modeling of complex systems demonstrating methods for sustainability. Is it possible to produce a more general model to help us improve the sustainability of humanity as a species?Shawn "Fred" Whitemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08607489891707432348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-82947471949198741162007-10-24T21:04:00.000-07:002007-10-24T21:04:00.000-07:00Holling sees humans as having abilities that natur...Holling sees humans as having abilities that natural systems do not. Is he implying humans are above the natural complex system, is it that we just have more of a responsibility to not mess with the system, or something else entirely?David Odegardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02458221075316581740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-77507604684849898842007-10-24T20:25:00.000-07:002007-10-24T20:25:00.000-07:00IN the Arquitt et al article, the model they creat...IN the Arquitt et al article, the model they create predicts a solution for the sustainability of the shrimp aquacultures and the enforcement of current government regulations. Has their model been implemented? Are other models predicting similar outcomes used in policy making and enforcement, as well as in other issues? <BR/><BR/>Paul-<BR/>I agree with your statement about the model created by Lansing and Kremer. It definitely lends support to their argument that their model took into account the specifics about the situation in Bali, making it more realistic in its predictions.tlvandeesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05345600600350316006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-57390414936873816112007-10-24T18:58:00.000-07:002007-10-24T18:58:00.000-07:00Kruse (my middle name!) et al state that there wil...Kruse (my middle name!) et al state that there will always be uncertainties when modeling complex systems. You never truely can control for all the variables and future events add even greater unreliability to these models. Would it be beneficial to test the quality of their complex adaptive system model of artic community sustainability by using the various variables of interest and applying them to past environmental conditions and seen how close to the actual conditions the model predicts? sort of like how Lansing and Kremer modeled a condition in the past and predicted how it actually turned out.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15532035790906598732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-86695954107290175532007-10-24T11:55:00.000-07:002007-10-24T11:55:00.000-07:00Edit: Rather THAT change is inevitable....~Myra~Edit: Rather THAT change is inevitable....<BR/>~Myra~Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-39144644161981818982007-10-24T11:54:00.000-07:002007-10-24T11:54:00.000-07:00In response to Michael, in the face of total colla...In response to Michael, in the face of total collapse is too late a stage to detect what will happen, because according to Hollings cycle it is already in the process of reorganizing so although factors may change the way in which it "collapses" the cycle has to take its course. Now, although this may sound very fatalistic (uh hum, David), it is not in the sense that foresight and consciousness that humans possess can affect the velocity at which certain stages in the hierarchy play out. I am NOT saying, and neither do I think Holling is saying, that a destiny is determined. Rather than change is inevitable, and that certain systems consistently go through various elements of change.<BR/>~Myra~Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-9324832713379976022007-10-23T08:05:00.000-07:002007-10-23T08:05:00.000-07:00Holling states that periods of success carry with ...Holling states that periods of success carry with them the seeds of subsequent downfall because of the accumulated stresses and rigidities. He later states foresight, communication, and technology help to increase the robusticity of the panarchy by introducing healthy variability. This seems a tad contradictory; given the foresight, communications, and technology, shouldn’t human systems be apt at detecting these “seedling” changes, or be able to agree upon a course of action once they are detected, especially in the face of total collapse?Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14951941963167223313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-1639361516266481732007-10-23T07:50:00.000-07:002007-10-23T07:50:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Steven M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00306296902750814674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-65324767214403964622007-10-23T07:47:00.000-07:002007-10-23T07:47:00.000-07:00In reference to the Balinese irrigation system - h...In reference to the Balinese irrigation system - how long have archaeologists determined this system to have been in operation?<BR/><BR/>As far as shrimp aquaculture, shouldnt we be concerned with future development in this industry? It seems that the lessons learned in Thailand should be applied for sustainablity and safe management of the ecosystem in parts of the globe on the verge of making the same commitments.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-87632980467268957772007-10-23T07:35:00.000-07:002007-10-23T07:35:00.000-07:00The fact that Lansing could parameterize his ABM (...The fact that Lansing could parameterize his ABM (agent-based model) with the specific landscape of the Balinese valleys is great. I find it difficult to formulate or trust ABMs that are more general, context-less; you've got such a huge parameter space to explore, so many different things than can vary based on the situation, that it's hard to draw out the helpful conclusions.<BR/><BR/>Seems like you could gain leverage on more general problems by thinking of a very specific scenario in which the behavior evolves, seeing what happens there, then making the situation more generic in increments. <BR/><BR/>There are some things they seem to assume without investigating whether the particular assumption is important. For example, what happens to the patterns when farmers look around at 6 neighbors, or 10 neighbors, instead of 4? Could the size of coordinating clusters fall out of this, rather than the fact that they maximize yields? What happens when they also have access to memory of past periods' behavior and payoffs, not just what happened this year?pablohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10776192960838440402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-70995527422170826322007-10-23T07:22:00.000-07:002007-10-23T07:22:00.000-07:00I agree with Helen's difficulty with Lansing's tre...I agree with Helen's difficulty with Lansing's treatment of human agency vs. blind processes.<BR/><BR/>I disagree, also, that “macroscopic effects on the topography of the adaptive landscape… are not apparent from within the horizons of evolutionary ecology”; any game theoretic model makes the payoffs to a particular strategy dependent on what everybody else does. In fact, this seems like a particularly large, detailed coordination game, into which they put agents with simple learning rules, and saw what happened. True, most evolutionary ecologists wouldn’t look at the exact questions they looked at, but I don’t find it a whole world away.<BR/><BR/>I like what they did though.pablohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10776192960838440402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-76217697202294335012007-10-22T21:30:00.000-07:002007-10-22T21:30:00.000-07:00Is Arquitt referring to environmental mitigation i...Is Arquitt referring to environmental mitigation in this paper?helen elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14857441446149468625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-74822869677712478252007-10-22T21:24:00.000-07:002007-10-22T21:24:00.000-07:00In regards to Lansing (1993), it appears that the ...In regards to Lansing (1993), it appears that the bulk of their argument is predicated on the distinction between 'mindless selective processes' and human agency. Who determines where one stops and the other starts? Isn't the mind itself is a product of natural selective processes? To these authors it appears that agency occurs when maladaptive behavior begins. Who defined these parameters?helen elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14857441446149468625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-31271809474275581562007-10-22T19:36:00.000-07:002007-10-22T19:36:00.000-07:00Holling states that the panarchical system is stab...Holling states that the panarchical system is stable except in cases of extremely large events which would collapse the whole system through cascading destruction. But that implies that there is ultimate highest level that can be destroyed due to lack of remembering from a higher level. Or can a large event destroy a system from an intermediate level, with destruction both up to slower moving levels and down to the faster ones. If there is an ultimate level, as implied by the ability of humans to create more levels with time and increase potential, then how is the ulitmate level defined and who makes that decision? Also, does the event need to be on the scale of species destruction of 65 million years ago to cause the collapse of a panarchical system?tlvandeesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05345600600350316006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-66327837643158017512007-10-22T19:06:00.000-07:002007-10-22T19:06:00.000-07:00In regards to Holling 2001:What is going on here? ...In regards to Holling 2001:<BR/>What is going on here? I understand the concepts he's discussing, but not how they relate to the situations he's discussing. Has this model been tested? What are its applications? What the heck is the point? The author discusses situations that are similar to what he discusses, but this is anecdotal evidence. He discusses applications for human systems, but provides no test of whether his model actually explains observed situations. And how does any of this relate to sustainable development?Shawn "Fred" Whitemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08607489891707432348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-25570561348599415622007-10-22T19:04:00.000-07:002007-10-22T19:04:00.000-07:00What can give the great resilience?What can give the great resilience?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12334058277940978026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-22055693876994161972007-10-22T19:00:00.000-07:002007-10-22T19:00:00.000-07:00For Holling's paper, in the adaptive cycle, the au...For Holling's paper, in the adaptive cycle, the author mentioned that the flexibility and high potental cannot exist together in a stable system (eg. K). Is that always true?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12334058277940978026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-27778108818270260602007-10-22T18:43:00.000-07:002007-10-22T18:43:00.000-07:00How do complex systems handle chance?How do complex systems handle chance?David Odegardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02458221075316581740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-42794894544826862282007-10-22T18:38:00.000-07:002007-10-22T18:38:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.David Odegardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02458221075316581740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-6281337654944442007-10-22T18:36:00.000-07:002007-10-22T18:36:00.000-07:00Constanza describes System analysis as:systems ana...Constanza describes System analysis as:<BR/><BR/>systems analysis is the scientific method applied across many disciplines, scales, resolutions, and system types in an integrative manner. <BR/><BR/>That seems very close to the description of biogeography that we have been using. Especially the part about applying methods across various disciplines. <BR/><BR/>Obviously the papers this week show that biogeogaphiers use system analysis in their work.<BR/><BR/>What other feilds of biology could these techniques be useful in? Maybe in genetics?Steven M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00306296902750814674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6890587739757813022.post-56646307399393130842007-10-22T09:04:00.000-07:002007-10-22T09:04:00.000-07:00Have you had a chance to look at Thomas Homer-Dixo...Have you had a chance to look at Thomas Homer-Dixon's new book - The Up Side of Down (available both in a US and a Canadian version). He's a Canadian who has invested time examining social ingenuity and, in this latest book, how the energy patterns of civilizations function as a key driver. He's giving a talk that I'll attend tonight in Calgary but I've used him for a course I taught last year on World Civilizations and it seems to overlap well with where you're course is at. Buzz Holling is also a Canadian. You can see my own ingenuity project at: www.ingenuityarts.com It would be great to be in your course but the communte between Calgary and New Mexico is significant. Are you associated at all with the Sante Fe Institute? I saw it on your links page.Ingenuity Artshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12647685739620958586noreply@blogger.com